1 00:00:10,570 --> 00:00:09,070 I'm this episode of skeptic Oh Alex 2 00:00:13,930 --> 00:00:10,580 talks with religious scholar and author 3 00:00:16,090 --> 00:00:13,940 dr. gregory shushan i think it is kind 4 00:00:19,060 --> 00:00:16,100 of an important issue because the one 5 00:00:21,460 --> 00:00:19,070 thing that does strike me a lot is when 6 00:00:24,070 --> 00:00:21,470 you look at the contemporary near-death 7 00:00:26,850 --> 00:00:24,080 experience accounts overwhelmingly what 8 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:26,860 these people say beyond all the kind of 9 00:00:33,389 --> 00:00:30,290 scholarly chitchat is hey man it's about 10 00:00:37,779 --> 00:00:33,399 love it's about this kind of 11 00:00:40,510 --> 00:00:37,789 indescribable but universally relatable 12 00:00:43,390 --> 00:00:40,520 feeling of love you know that's what 13 00:00:45,490 --> 00:00:43,400 it's about forget everything else it was 14 00:00:48,250 --> 00:00:45,500 about look that does seem to come 15 00:00:52,389 --> 00:00:48,260 through universally and I think that has 16 00:00:58,569 --> 00:00:52,399 a strong moral kind of message behind it 17 00:01:00,370 --> 00:00:58,579 I think they're sent back in order to 18 00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:00,380 tell people about theories of the 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:01,160 afterlife 20 00:01:06,550 --> 00:01:03,890 they're all so many accounts of where 21 00:01:08,980 --> 00:01:06,560 some kind of traditional ritual is 22 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:08,990 changed and those are often changed for 23 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:12,170 the better so against sacrifice or 24 00:01:17,950 --> 00:01:15,530 something again I mean I didn't say the 25 00:01:22,660 --> 00:01:17,960 biggest exchange the other might not 26 00:01:25,390 --> 00:01:22,670 always be specifically love as a concept 27 00:01:26,770 --> 00:01:25,400 expressed in his textbook it is often a 28 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:26,780 change for the better 29 00:01:34,210 --> 00:01:31,010 it's effectively like this is a place of 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:34,220 wisdom these always people are 31 00:01:44,490 --> 00:01:35,930 undergoing ritual painting and 32 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:58,970 stay with us for skeptical 33 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:02,340 today we welcome dr. gregory shushan - 34 00:02:08,190 --> 00:02:04,930 skeptic Oh dr. shoshanna's a research 35 00:02:10,500 --> 00:02:08,200 fellow at Oxford in Ramsey Centre for 36 00:02:13,470 --> 00:02:10,510 science and religion and the author of 37 00:02:16,890 --> 00:02:13,480 the of the acclaimed conceptions of the 38 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:16,900 afterlife in early civilizations he's 39 00:02:21,630 --> 00:02:18,690 here to talk about among other things 40 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:21,640 what he's learned about near-death 41 00:02:27,270 --> 00:02:24,450 experience from a cross-cultural 42 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:27,280 perspective Gregory it's great to have 43 00:02:29,550 --> 00:02:29,020 you on skeptic oh thanks so much for 44 00:02:33,420 --> 00:02:29,560 joining me 45 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:33,430 well thanks for asking so you were 46 00:02:37,500 --> 00:02:35,410 introduced to me and recommended to me 47 00:02:41,220 --> 00:02:37,510 by a couple of different skeptical 48 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:41,230 listeners to kind of fill in some of the 49 00:02:46,860 --> 00:02:43,000 gaps and some of the arguments we've 50 00:02:49,410 --> 00:02:46,870 been having with folks about NDEs from a 51 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:49,420 cult from a cross-cultural perspective 52 00:02:53,250 --> 00:02:51,490 and then when you sent me some of your 53 00:02:56,220 --> 00:02:53,260 work and I dug into it I found that 54 00:02:59,510 --> 00:02:56,230 you're really going way much further 55 00:03:02,370 --> 00:02:59,520 beyond that kind of simple is there a 56 00:03:05,100 --> 00:03:02,380 cross-cultural phenomena associated with 57 00:03:07,050 --> 00:03:05,110 near-death experiences so maybe you 58 00:03:09,690 --> 00:03:07,060 better back up and tell us a little bit 59 00:03:12,570 --> 00:03:09,700 about your background and the the really 60 00:03:14,660 --> 00:03:12,580 the scope of the questions you've 61 00:03:20,130 --> 00:03:14,670 examined in this area 62 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:20,140 okay sure well I started out in eastern 63 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:22,690 Mediterranean archaeology and Egyptology 64 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:25,930 and this getting into this kind of 65 00:03:30,780 --> 00:03:28,390 research and E's cross culture that was 66 00:03:33,990 --> 00:03:30,790 really just kind of a I stumbled on it I 67 00:03:35,729 --> 00:03:34,000 was reading Egyptian afterlife texts 68 00:03:38,690 --> 00:03:35,739 The Book of the Dead and the coffin 69 00:03:41,190 --> 00:03:38,700 texts and pyramid texts and just started 70 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:41,200 thinking about them in terms of an ee 71 00:03:46,650 --> 00:03:42,970 that just started seeing similarities 72 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:46,660 and 2n DS and then I remembered a book 73 00:03:51,990 --> 00:03:48,730 by Carroll's Alice key called Otherworld 74 00:03:55,979 --> 00:03:52,000 journeys where she looks at medieval 75 00:03:58,530 --> 00:03:55,989 European visionary texts about usually 76 00:04:00,330 --> 00:03:58,540 monks going to afterlife rooms and then 77 00:04:02,180 --> 00:04:00,340 coming back as she looked at those in in 78 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:02,190 relation to Indies and I kind of thought 79 00:04:07,650 --> 00:04:04,360 you know there's a similarity with the 80 00:04:08,150 --> 00:04:07,660 ancient Egyptian texts and with European 81 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:08,160 evil 82 00:04:12,530 --> 00:04:09,690 the life text and modern your death 83 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:12,540 experiences what's going on here 84 00:04:19,690 --> 00:04:16,410 basically so I did a project comparing 85 00:04:22,730 --> 00:04:19,700 Egyptian and Vedic Indian afterlife efz 86 00:04:24,770 --> 00:04:22,740 in the context of Indies and then I just 87 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:24,780 that kind of snowballed and I added on 88 00:04:32,090 --> 00:04:28,850 ancient China Sumerian and Babylonian 89 00:04:36,410 --> 00:04:32,100 Mesopotamia and Aztec and Mayan 90 00:04:38,450 --> 00:04:36,420 Mesoamerica hey Gregory for ask you a 91 00:04:40,670 --> 00:04:38,460 question is there a fan or something 92 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:40,680 that's going on in the background oh it 93 00:04:44,750 --> 00:04:44,490 is my computer fan okay you can do about 94 00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:44,760 that 95 00:04:51,050 --> 00:04:47,850 it kind of comes and goes huh yeah like 96 00:04:59,780 --> 00:04:51,060 you know it's not doing it okay okay 97 00:05:03,350 --> 00:04:59,790 there's I can I can move away from well 98 00:05:06,230 --> 00:05:03,360 just do the best we can okay so so then 99 00:05:08,660 --> 00:05:06,240 what what drove you so you you started 100 00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:08,670 with the Egyptian Book of the Dead and 101 00:05:13,100 --> 00:05:11,430 other accounts what were you thinking as 102 00:05:14,830 --> 00:05:13,110 you went from one to the other day how 103 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:14,840 much of a background did you have on 104 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:17,490 modern current day near-death experience 105 00:05:21,890 --> 00:05:19,650 research was this kind of a aha here 106 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:21,900 it's all right here in history as well 107 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:24,570 or or how did that kind of evolve your 108 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:28,010 understanding of it yeah it was a fairly 109 00:05:37,070 --> 00:05:33,770 casual experience you know I had kind of 110 00:05:39,830 --> 00:05:37,080 plastic memories and I got the why if 111 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:39,840 any I'm just kind of always interested 112 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:40,890 in that kind of thing they're not from 113 00:05:45,470 --> 00:05:43,050 an academic level been interested in 114 00:05:50,540 --> 00:05:45,480 lucid dreaming and you know there was a 115 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:50,550 kid I had all these books about 30 just 116 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:52,470 yeah we've just kind of triggered 117 00:05:58,250 --> 00:05:55,410 something not so much on a level of you 118 00:06:00,980 --> 00:05:58,260 know well maybe if these ancient texts 119 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:00,990 are describing similar types of things 120 00:06:05,420 --> 00:06:02,610 and maybe that means that surely there's 121 00:06:07,370 --> 00:06:05,430 more along the lanes II why are they 122 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:07,380 describing things that you simply can do 123 00:06:13,430 --> 00:06:09,660 the experiences they have those kinds of 124 00:06:15,260 --> 00:06:13,440 experiences themselves right and so I'm 125 00:06:17,950 --> 00:06:15,270 sorry then continue on where so where 126 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:17,960 did this research will take you next 127 00:06:24,129 --> 00:06:21,650 well I guess I should 128 00:06:25,629 --> 00:06:24,139 a little bit and then clear that almost 129 00:06:27,879 --> 00:06:25,639 all the Texan I was looking at in these 130 00:06:29,770 --> 00:06:27,889 ancient civilizations they're not 131 00:06:33,159 --> 00:06:29,780 documentary texts where there's a 132 00:06:34,930 --> 00:06:33,169 specific historical individual whose 133 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:34,940 recruit to is having a median coming 134 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:38,210 back it was really um religious beliefs 135 00:06:45,159 --> 00:06:42,530 in an afterlife so essentially I was 136 00:06:47,230 --> 00:06:45,169 driving that used my those beliefs and 137 00:06:51,719 --> 00:06:47,240 afterlife across cultures could have 138 00:06:54,219 --> 00:06:51,729 this certain set of similarities and 139 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:54,229 realize that the same second seminary is 140 00:06:58,779 --> 00:06:56,330 corresponding to my merit and the 141 00:07:00,360 --> 00:06:58,789 elements in your name experience so 142 00:07:03,430 --> 00:07:00,370 that's when I started thinking you know 143 00:07:04,210 --> 00:07:03,440 this this isn't really he's channeling a 144 00:07:07,689 --> 00:07:04,220 coincidence 145 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:07,699 so I could explain the similarities by 146 00:07:14,620 --> 00:07:11,710 reference to the consistent experience 147 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:14,630 but you can't really look at it the 148 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:15,410 other way around 149 00:07:19,710 --> 00:07:17,810 by saying that all these societies have 150 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:19,720 some other beliefs and they almost 151 00:07:25,060 --> 00:07:22,570 results in a similar kind of experience 152 00:07:28,060 --> 00:07:25,070 because it's a chicken and egg question 153 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:28,070 of course of course and then this is 154 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:29,810 kind of interesting because it kind of 155 00:07:37,060 --> 00:07:31,280 gives us a little bit of a window into 156 00:07:39,430 --> 00:07:37,070 the world of scholarly cross religious 157 00:07:40,689 --> 00:07:39,440 or I guess the kind of stuff that 158 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:40,699 someone in the department of religion 159 00:07:46,420 --> 00:07:43,610 would do or look at it from these kind 160 00:07:48,339 --> 00:07:46,430 of perspectives then right so this gets 161 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:48,349 back to your grounding in terms of being 162 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:52,310 a religious scholar is that well one of 163 00:08:01,659 --> 00:07:56,690 the things actually I first I was it in 164 00:08:03,790 --> 00:08:01,669 archaeology with archaeology and 165 00:08:06,460 --> 00:08:03,800 surprisingly they were very different 166 00:08:09,820 --> 00:08:06,470 for this kind of work even though the 167 00:08:13,899 --> 00:08:09,830 archaeology isn't it you know but you 168 00:08:16,060 --> 00:08:13,909 know supposedly a scientific pursuit his 169 00:08:19,330 --> 00:08:16,070 only line we divert into religious 170 00:08:21,930 --> 00:08:19,340 studies that I started saying that this 171 00:08:27,370 --> 00:08:21,940 kind of thing just just isn't really 172 00:08:28,629 --> 00:08:27,380 dumb it's pretty frowned upon and I'm 173 00:08:30,310 --> 00:08:28,639 you know the department I was which was 174 00:08:30,839 --> 00:08:30,320 a University of Wales and navigated a 175 00:08:33,180 --> 00:08:30,849 very 176 00:08:34,740 --> 00:08:33,190 and they have they have a research 177 00:08:37,469 --> 00:08:34,750 center for religious experience and 178 00:08:41,009 --> 00:08:37,479 things like that but in the broader 179 00:08:44,340 --> 00:08:41,019 field there was just really a lot of 180 00:08:46,079 --> 00:08:44,350 theoretical opposition for a firm number 181 00:08:47,639 --> 00:08:46,089 of reasons in the first being that I'm 182 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:47,649 not supposed to be cross-cultural 183 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:51,490 comparison anymore that's because this 184 00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:53,410 notion that all religions and all 185 00:08:58,680 --> 00:08:56,110 cultures are unique religion being a 186 00:09:01,590 --> 00:08:58,690 cultural phenomenon resonating hails and 187 00:09:03,329 --> 00:09:01,600 therefore there's nothing really 188 00:09:05,579 --> 00:09:03,339 objectively to compare means well 189 00:09:09,620 --> 00:09:05,589 compare when society's beliefs to news 190 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:09,630 politics that's a different religion 191 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:12,910 interesting fascinating yeah and this is 192 00:09:20,030 --> 00:09:15,850 because it's a kind of understandable 193 00:09:22,319 --> 00:09:20,040 reaction to theological studies where 194 00:09:25,259 --> 00:09:22,329 early images studies a lot of cross 195 00:09:27,509 --> 00:09:25,269 cultural cultural comparisons tell us 196 00:09:29,519 --> 00:09:27,519 Christianity is the kind of top layer 197 00:09:31,439 --> 00:09:29,529 with you know Egyptian down at the 198 00:09:35,569 --> 00:09:31,449 bottom for them this time this pyramid 199 00:09:39,569 --> 00:09:35,579 going up to the divine troops in Iraq 200 00:09:41,759 --> 00:09:39,579 and so there were a lot of errors made 201 00:09:43,650 --> 00:09:41,769 in cross-cultural comparison in the 202 00:09:46,019 --> 00:09:43,660 early days and a lot of very sloppy 203 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:46,029 methodology a lot of over 204 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:48,250 generalizations of people saying you 205 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:50,170 know for example everybody in the world 206 00:09:54,059 --> 00:09:51,910 that using a napkin like me that's not 207 00:09:57,449 --> 00:09:54,069 the same then that's just not the case 208 00:09:59,490 --> 00:09:57,459 so because of all of that it just got a 209 00:10:02,550 --> 00:09:59,500 really bad name and you know the sort of 210 00:10:07,050 --> 00:10:02,560 post modernist infantry actually is we 211 00:10:10,620 --> 00:10:07,060 don't compare right you know that that's 212 00:10:13,790 --> 00:10:10,630 really fills in one of the gaps that I 213 00:10:16,050 --> 00:10:13,800 had in looking at the very interesting 214 00:10:18,329 --> 00:10:16,060 research paper that you sent me that's 215 00:10:20,429 --> 00:10:18,339 soon to be published in method in theory 216 00:10:21,990 --> 00:10:20,439 in the study of religion a journal I of 217 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:22,000 course have never heard of before he 218 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:24,130 said it but you know as we were chatting 219 00:10:29,429 --> 00:10:27,910 a bottle as we were chatting about as we 220 00:10:32,730 --> 00:10:29,439 were chatting about a little bit before 221 00:10:35,670 --> 00:10:32,740 the interview began what struck me was 222 00:10:38,460 --> 00:10:35,680 you had to start from the standpoint of 223 00:10:41,129 --> 00:10:38,470 defending the idea that there is such a 224 00:10:44,430 --> 00:10:41,139 thing as a religious or a mystical 225 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:44,440 experience at all and it struck me as a 226 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:47,650 wait a minute this would seem to be I 227 00:10:50,970 --> 00:10:49,330 would have assumed that it's the the 228 00:10:52,770 --> 00:10:50,980 exact opposite of that is that the 229 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:52,780 assumption is that yes of course we 230 00:10:57,330 --> 00:10:55,090 understand that people are experiencing 231 00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,340 these things and we can call it what we 232 00:11:01,710 --> 00:10:59,680 are but call it what we like but for the 233 00:11:03,330 --> 00:11:01,720 most part it be commonly accepted that 234 00:11:06,450 --> 00:11:03,340 they are mystical they are religious and 235 00:11:08,910 --> 00:11:06,460 yet there's a out there's this seems 236 00:11:10,860 --> 00:11:08,920 like a hostility to that idea can you 237 00:11:15,390 --> 00:11:10,870 dig into that a little bit for us 238 00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:15,400 sure yeah that's that was the other huge 239 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:19,360 methodological work not only do I 240 00:11:24,150 --> 00:11:22,450 compare costs culturally but I am open 241 00:11:26,910 --> 00:11:24,160 to the idea that there can be an 242 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:26,920 experience which cross culturally is 243 00:11:31,860 --> 00:11:29,610 commonly interpreted as being religious 244 00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:31,870 which is a very roundabout 245 00:11:37,650 --> 00:11:34,030 academic way of saying a religious 246 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:37,660 experience and again that's the 247 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:40,090 hostility or opposition to that idea 248 00:11:46,950 --> 00:11:43,810 it's very similar to the cross-cultural 249 00:11:48,950 --> 00:11:46,960 comparison in general because if you say 250 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:48,960 that there's some kind of universal 251 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:52,770 experience which is religious then that 252 00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:55,810 kind of leads or starts leaving the idea 253 00:12:00,990 --> 00:11:58,240 that maybe those experiences might have 254 00:12:03,180 --> 00:12:01,000 some kind of leaving some divine reality 255 00:12:06,390 --> 00:12:03,190 the body you know whatever kind of 256 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:06,400 terminal it in one years from my 257 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:08,230 perspective it doesn't I think there can 258 00:12:13,710 --> 00:12:11,770 be experiences that generally people 259 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:13,720 think of it urges that they don't 260 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:16,240 necessarily have any kind of divine 261 00:12:27,090 --> 00:12:19,530 origin I'm not saying that they don't 262 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:27,100 say that they do that's almost like well 263 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:29,530 it's the ultimate catch-22 you know it's 264 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:32,710 like they okay do your religious studies 265 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:36,310 do your study of spiritual experiences 266 00:12:39,270 --> 00:12:38,290 but know that there isn't any God and 267 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:39,280 there isn't any real spiritual 268 00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:41,490 experience so whatever you find is not 269 00:12:48,150 --> 00:12:45,790 is some on that valid but you have to 270 00:12:50,579 --> 00:12:48,160 reduce it everything to culture but then 271 00:12:52,650 --> 00:12:50,589 the problem is when you see any 272 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:52,660 similarities cross culturally how do you 273 00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:55,510 explain that and so their answer is that 274 00:12:57,950 --> 00:12:56,800 there are no similarities cross 275 00:12:59,810 --> 00:12:57,960 culturally because they 276 00:13:01,310 --> 00:12:59,820 and beyond that if you see anything 277 00:13:05,170 --> 00:13:01,320 that's all in this colleague of mine 278 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:05,180 essentially so how might current 279 00:13:10,310 --> 00:13:07,710 near-death experience science and the 280 00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:10,320 understanding we're gaining help get us 281 00:13:12,830 --> 00:13:11,310 out of this mess 282 00:13:14,930 --> 00:13:12,840 because I think that's where you're 283 00:13:16,940 --> 00:13:14,940 coming from to a certain extent you're 284 00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:16,950 kind of pointing back to the current 285 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:18,510 science and say hey wait a minute 286 00:13:23,870 --> 00:13:21,930 there's some real stuff here in the in 287 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:23,880 the in the science II way we can point 288 00:13:28,660 --> 00:13:25,890 to and say this stuff is real now let's 289 00:13:32,450 --> 00:13:28,670 figure out how it fits back into our our 290 00:13:34,460 --> 00:13:32,460 our historical accounts is that kind of 291 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:34,470 what you're doing yeah yeah that's 292 00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:38,010 that's a good summary I mean there's 293 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:39,990 there's sort of two branches of the 294 00:13:44,870 --> 00:13:42,210 science you know there's a science of 295 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:44,880 people like people penny can you send 296 00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:47,850 party yeah and normally they're doing 297 00:13:59,840 --> 00:13:50,400 this these studies were there placing 298 00:14:02,000 --> 00:13:59,850 symbols above there's that kind of thing 299 00:14:04,730 --> 00:14:02,010 but I'm kind of more on the social 300 00:14:07,130 --> 00:14:04,740 science and those things where I do 301 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:07,140 recommend there's a science because it's 302 00:14:13,970 --> 00:14:10,770 a scientific comparison looking at 303 00:14:15,830 --> 00:14:13,980 historical texts and trying to find out 304 00:14:17,510 --> 00:14:15,840 what is actually in these connects what 305 00:14:19,940 --> 00:14:17,520 these people are saying rather than 306 00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:19,950 starting with some philosophical 307 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:22,560 assumption that I'm supposed to have as 308 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:25,530 a 21st century Western academic and then 309 00:14:31,430 --> 00:14:27,690 imposing that on the Texan I'm looking 310 00:14:33,020 --> 00:14:31,440 at so that's another unpopular than the 311 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:33,030 whole idea that there can't be any kind 312 00:14:45,050 --> 00:14:36,810 of objectivity so to these kinds of in 313 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:45,060 Texas so your hands or your hands are 314 00:14:50,630 --> 00:14:48,720 tied you know but it does seem like a 315 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:50,640 kind of a really interesting twist to 316 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:54,030 say well we can be grounded in what 317 00:14:59,360 --> 00:14:56,730 we're discovering from current accounts 318 00:15:01,280 --> 00:14:59,370 you know and I think I think sampar Nia 319 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:01,290 and Peter fennec and the little things 320 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:04,530 above the the bed are fine but I think 321 00:15:10,130 --> 00:15:08,730 the broader a broader understanding of 322 00:15:11,079 --> 00:15:10,140 near-death experience science that 323 00:15:13,420 --> 00:15:11,089 includes 324 00:15:16,210 --> 00:15:13,430 you know good solid medical surveying 325 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:16,220 which as anyone knows is really the the 326 00:15:20,769 --> 00:15:18,410 bedrock of medicine you know if you want 327 00:15:23,860 --> 00:15:20,779 to go study someone's pain or someone's 328 00:15:25,090 --> 00:15:23,870 depression you you ask them questions 329 00:15:26,980 --> 00:15:25,100 and you say what happened and we have a 330 00:15:29,379 --> 00:15:26,990 very scientific way of doing that so I 331 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:29,389 almost think that's the other part of 332 00:15:34,689 --> 00:15:31,610 this right is is you have some grounding 333 00:15:37,179 --> 00:15:34,699 in the that kind of research a little 334 00:15:38,530 --> 00:15:37,189 bit softer science but the the results 335 00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:38,540 of that are pretty overwhelming in terms 336 00:15:44,259 --> 00:15:42,350 of the reality of a phenomenon being the 337 00:15:46,569 --> 00:15:44,269 near-death experience phenomena the 338 00:15:48,429 --> 00:15:46,579 characteristics of a phenomena we have 339 00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,439 the Grace and scale which is now the 340 00:15:52,329 --> 00:15:50,480 near-death experience scale that we can 341 00:15:55,199 --> 00:15:52,339 measure the depth of thought of the 342 00:15:59,379 --> 00:15:55,209 phenomena and I imagine that's just like 343 00:16:02,439 --> 00:15:59,389 great fuel for for your work to go back 344 00:16:04,179 --> 00:16:02,449 and say gee how does this match up with 345 00:16:05,829 --> 00:16:04,189 these ancient texts and it sounds like 346 00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:05,839 you're finding that in a lot of ways 347 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:10,399 they do absolutely yeah in my current 348 00:16:15,939 --> 00:16:13,970 research which is looking at indigenous 349 00:16:20,439 --> 00:16:15,949 societies that are on the way though 350 00:16:23,410 --> 00:16:20,449 mostly negative North America Africa and 351 00:16:27,369 --> 00:16:23,420 the Pacific looking at their afterlife 352 00:16:29,949 --> 00:16:27,379 for these innovations that experiences a 353 00:16:30,999 --> 00:16:29,959 much more focused way because there are 354 00:16:33,939 --> 00:16:31,009 so many accounts of near-death 355 00:16:35,860 --> 00:16:33,949 experiences from from these societies 356 00:16:38,350 --> 00:16:35,870 that I can look at them and then you 357 00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:38,360 look at how they compared to their 358 00:16:42,519 --> 00:16:39,920 afterlife so it's almost a reverse 359 00:16:46,269 --> 00:16:42,529 process to help you afford a lot less 360 00:16:49,329 --> 00:16:46,279 speculation and the interesting thing 361 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:49,339 that I'm finding here is that if there 362 00:16:53,499 --> 00:16:51,290 are these really broad sort of regional 363 00:16:57,369 --> 00:16:53,509 similarities in these three different 364 00:16:59,169 --> 00:16:57,379 parts of the world so in with American 365 00:17:01,720 --> 00:16:59,179 Indians and everyone by the way I should 366 00:17:04,269 --> 00:17:01,730 go back and say that because most of the 367 00:17:06,279 --> 00:17:04,279 world's indigenous populations and are 368 00:17:08,799 --> 00:17:06,289 converted to some non indigenous 369 00:17:11,980 --> 00:17:08,809 religion I've kind of limited what I'm 370 00:17:14,799 --> 00:17:11,990 looking at to Vietnamese and then really 371 00:17:17,980 --> 00:17:14,809 explore a missionary employs excellent 372 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:17,990 to try it you know influence any other 373 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:22,130 culture so what I found so far is that 374 00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:24,650 with American Indians 375 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:27,260 it's really just a model this idea that 376 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:29,450 people have near-death experience and 377 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:31,850 some similar kites and kinds of explain 378 00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:34,370 Airy experiences and base their beliefs 379 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:38,240 on me they're just you know I think I 380 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:41,630 found about what 70s 75 Native American 381 00:17:46,090 --> 00:17:43,970 TVs which I mean how many didn't even 382 00:17:48,190 --> 00:17:46,100 noticed before being a deaf studies 383 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:48,200 they're all out there literature but 384 00:17:55,330 --> 00:17:49,610 nobody's really recognize them as such 385 00:17:58,450 --> 00:17:55,340 and others about 70 75 there's over 20 386 00:18:00,340 --> 00:17:58,460 where people themselves are the 387 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:00,350 informants speaking to be ethnographers 388 00:18:04,510 --> 00:18:02,690 are missionaries actually say and this 389 00:18:06,789 --> 00:18:04,520 is where we got our afterlife beliefs I 390 00:18:09,789 --> 00:18:06,799 mean we believe what he did because this 391 00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:09,799 person's own so died came back to life 392 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:11,510 and told us what it's like on the other 393 00:18:18,490 --> 00:18:16,010 side great so you know that's a big 394 00:18:19,529 --> 00:18:18,500 argument against logic what's going on 395 00:18:22,740 --> 00:18:19,539 with them 396 00:18:24,850 --> 00:18:22,750 postmodernist enhanced academic world 397 00:18:27,159 --> 00:18:24,860 and it would be great if that will be 398 00:18:29,049 --> 00:18:27,169 the story if I could say and that's just 399 00:18:31,779 --> 00:18:29,059 the way it is in the world and I could 400 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:31,789 make history his claim honey but that's 401 00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:34,490 not the case so what I found is in 402 00:18:41,549 --> 00:18:36,799 Africa it's a completely different 403 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:41,559 situation there instead of a shaman in 404 00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:44,090 North America shamanism is very much 405 00:18:49,149 --> 00:18:47,270 related to these soldier knees spiritual 406 00:18:52,029 --> 00:18:49,159 means to the other world either to get 407 00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:52,039 some kind of information from the 408 00:18:56,860 --> 00:18:54,260 spirits of gods or to go there and 409 00:18:59,110 --> 00:18:56,870 rescue his soul somebody who's sick or 410 00:19:00,580 --> 00:18:59,120 dying he'll bring it back and make sure 411 00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:00,590 it goes back into the body and me they 412 00:19:06,789 --> 00:19:02,960 come back to life honey but in Africa 413 00:19:10,350 --> 00:19:06,799 shamanism is more of a it's more related 414 00:19:13,750 --> 00:19:10,360 to possession and to sorcery especially 415 00:19:18,610 --> 00:19:13,760 avoiding the neutralizing sorcery from 416 00:19:20,860 --> 00:19:18,620 putting enemy struggling and what's 417 00:19:23,289 --> 00:19:20,870 interesting about that is they're also a 418 00:19:24,909 --> 00:19:23,299 far far fewer reports of near-death 419 00:19:27,220 --> 00:19:24,919 experiences they're here in our program 420 00:19:29,889 --> 00:19:27,230 and that's probably looking at even more 421 00:19:31,210 --> 00:19:29,899 sources because I got so fascinating 422 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:31,220 with the idea of how different it was 423 00:19:38,049 --> 00:19:35,330 that I just kept plowing through one 424 00:19:39,879 --> 00:19:38,059 19th century or earlier accounting 425 00:19:41,379 --> 00:19:39,889 but the African leaders and after 426 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:41,389 another 427 00:19:49,269 --> 00:19:45,049 I found maybe seven or eight near-death 428 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:49,279 experiences and most of these presented 429 00:19:54,129 --> 00:19:52,190 in this kind of application context like 430 00:19:55,690 --> 00:19:54,139 it's something that shouldn't happen so 431 00:19:57,820 --> 00:19:55,700 there are a couple of cases where 432 00:19:59,589 --> 00:19:57,830 somebody comes back from the dead and 433 00:20:01,899 --> 00:19:59,599 starts talking about the experience and 434 00:20:03,609 --> 00:20:01,909 they're stoned today because the idea 435 00:20:06,609 --> 00:20:03,619 the assumption other people is that 436 00:20:08,289 --> 00:20:06,619 they're possessed and something evil is 437 00:20:10,869 --> 00:20:08,299 going on you can rest he stopped 438 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:10,879 mm-hmm there's another case of a woman 439 00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:13,369 who was a human sacrifice and she didn't 440 00:20:17,019 --> 00:20:14,960 quite nah she came back and said that 441 00:20:18,969 --> 00:20:17,029 she went to the other world and was sent 442 00:20:20,499 --> 00:20:18,979 back because she was naked preparing 443 00:20:23,589 --> 00:20:20,509 your knowledge they should kill her 444 00:20:26,649 --> 00:20:23,599 again after clothing for properly so she 445 00:20:30,089 --> 00:20:26,659 can be presented to the god mom and so 446 00:20:33,029 --> 00:20:30,099 they did they killed her again so um oh 447 00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:33,039 and there's also another case of a 448 00:20:39,879 --> 00:20:36,799 couple of cases where a near-death 449 00:20:42,609 --> 00:20:39,889 experience is related to the foundation 450 00:20:44,979 --> 00:20:42,619 of an individual seeing here and in 451 00:20:46,779 --> 00:20:44,989 Native America was a lot those dances 452 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:46,789 kinds of religions where it's a 453 00:20:51,729 --> 00:20:49,129 revitalization where their religions are 454 00:20:56,409 --> 00:20:51,739 about to be destroyed by Christian 455 00:20:58,209 --> 00:20:56,419 missionaries and political events the 456 00:21:00,369 --> 00:20:58,219 white people coming in the inter 457 00:21:03,639 --> 00:21:00,379 ticketing and distributes immunization 458 00:21:05,859 --> 00:21:03,649 so a lot of quite a few examples that we 459 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:05,869 go to Stanford agents sprung up where 460 00:21:10,209 --> 00:21:08,570 the shaman or some kind of religious 461 00:21:13,899 --> 00:21:10,219 figure we've had a near-death experience 462 00:21:16,389 --> 00:21:13,909 and come back and related and there 463 00:21:19,509 --> 00:21:16,399 could be a religious movement developed 464 00:21:21,399 --> 00:21:19,519 around it and people would try to 465 00:21:25,239 --> 00:21:21,409 replicate the experience at the shown in 466 00:21:30,369 --> 00:21:25,249 here either through Konami long on hours 467 00:21:32,289 --> 00:21:30,379 of dancing repetitive and that's it 468 00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:32,299 again very very different situation in 469 00:21:37,089 --> 00:21:34,940 Africa there are public places in Africa 470 00:21:39,070 --> 00:21:37,099 where there were near-death experiences 471 00:21:41,229 --> 00:21:39,080 but when the person came back takes 472 00:21:43,989 --> 00:21:41,239 maybe he possessed say like Saint 473 00:21:45,310 --> 00:21:43,999 Anthony for example and not release the 474 00:21:47,710 --> 00:21:45,320 important thing about the fact that they 475 00:21:51,249 --> 00:21:47,720 died had these experiences in 476 00:21:53,950 --> 00:21:51,259 so so in a nutshell basically possession 477 00:21:58,119 --> 00:21:53,960 is much more of a culturally accepted 478 00:21:59,680 --> 00:21:58,129 thing in Africa whereas to me that 479 00:22:04,779 --> 00:21:59,690 experiences with you with a lot of 480 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:04,789 suspicion so that's why you do not have 481 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:06,289 many accounts of near-death experiences 482 00:22:10,419 --> 00:22:08,090 in Africa but their afterlife beliefs 483 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:10,429 just aren't really the same as they are 484 00:22:15,249 --> 00:22:12,740 in North America and one exception to 485 00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:15,259 them - that is Bantu societies which is 486 00:22:21,749 --> 00:22:17,809 interesting there are more banter in 487 00:22:25,419 --> 00:22:21,759 these than any other region in Africa 488 00:22:27,249 --> 00:22:25,429 there's more speculation about the 489 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:27,259 achromatic identity societies and 490 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:30,500 correspondingly more myths about James 491 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:32,450 chapter like lounging in your journals 492 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:36,710 so that's like the exception uh-huh well 493 00:22:42,009 --> 00:22:39,500 the you know that is just fascinating 494 00:22:44,889 --> 00:22:42,019 isn't it and it raises so many more 495 00:22:45,759 --> 00:22:44,899 questions that it answers and that seems 496 00:22:47,799 --> 00:22:45,769 to be the case 497 00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:47,809 from what I've seen about near-death 498 00:22:54,399 --> 00:22:50,750 experience phenomena in general you know 499 00:22:58,450 --> 00:22:54,409 we spend so much time trying to overcome 500 00:23:01,389 --> 00:22:58,460 this incredibly moronic cultural bias 501 00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:01,399 and scientific paradigm paradigm 502 00:23:06,519 --> 00:23:04,070 dogmatism that ties us to materialism 503 00:23:08,830 --> 00:23:06,529 and it's like we're battling no it's not 504 00:23:11,409 --> 00:23:08,840 that no it's not that it's that we can 505 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:11,419 never get to the point of really asking 506 00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:13,250 the more interesting questions like 507 00:23:18,999 --> 00:23:15,440 you're answering which is what the heck 508 00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:19,009 is it okay if we isn't that really where 509 00:23:23,519 --> 00:23:21,710 the research should begin because I 510 00:23:25,899 --> 00:23:23,529 think even in the contemporary 511 00:23:27,820 --> 00:23:25,909 near-death experience accounts it's 512 00:23:32,049 --> 00:23:27,830 always struck me that if you go and look 513 00:23:34,869 --> 00:23:32,059 at like the end ERF near-death 514 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:34,879 experience research foundation database 515 00:23:39,940 --> 00:23:37,129 of near-death experiences that dr. 516 00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:39,950 Jeffrey long has compiled and you go in 517 00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:42,440 there and you dig into it you're the 518 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:45,289 first you dig into it as as evidence 519 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:47,690 that there is such a phenomena that this 520 00:23:52,299 --> 00:23:49,340 is a medical mystery that can't be 521 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:52,309 easily explained by this mind equals 522 00:23:57,820 --> 00:23:55,490 brain silliness but once you get past 523 00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:57,830 that you say okay we have the evidence 524 00:24:01,330 --> 00:23:59,360 then you have to deal with these 525 00:24:04,090 --> 00:24:01,340 accounts and they're all over the 526 00:24:06,820 --> 00:24:04,100 place I mean they're just contradictory 527 00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:06,830 and they're bizarre in some ways and to 528 00:24:12,460 --> 00:24:09,500 try and find some line through that that 529 00:24:16,030 --> 00:24:12,470 says this is what this phenomena means 530 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:16,040 from how should I live my life or what 531 00:24:21,910 --> 00:24:19,010 really is the nature of the afterlife 532 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:21,920 it gets really murky and it sounds like 533 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:23,810 you're kind of finding the same thing I 534 00:24:29,980 --> 00:24:26,930 mean can you find a line to walk through 535 00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:29,990 there or do you think that's not even 536 00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:34,720 something we should try and do well I 537 00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:40,310 think what is the question here it limit 538 00:24:43,210 --> 00:24:41,360 let me rephrase that because there's a 539 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:43,220 terrible question you know the average 540 00:24:48,580 --> 00:24:46,490 person is saying okay 541 00:24:51,790 --> 00:24:48,590 what does this mean what does this mean 542 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:51,800 for my religion or forget my religion 543 00:24:55,810 --> 00:24:53,570 what does it mean for a my own personal 544 00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:55,820 spirituality what's going to happen to 545 00:25:00,700 --> 00:24:58,130 me after I die that's really a question 546 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:00,710 we're all dancing around so how can this 547 00:25:08,290 --> 00:25:03,170 research help no just a little closer to 548 00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:08,300 that let me just back up for one second 549 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:11,020 forget about them just to clarify that 550 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:14,510 but interesting thing about NBC's across 551 00:25:21,340 --> 00:25:18,610 cultures is not only the similarities 552 00:25:22,750 --> 00:25:21,350 and even in even in the ones in Africa 553 00:25:26,260 --> 00:25:22,760 they do exist even though they're very 554 00:25:28,450 --> 00:25:26,270 few there are very similar to Native 555 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:28,460 American Pacifica elsewhere but the 556 00:25:33,250 --> 00:25:30,050 interesting thing besides the seminary 557 00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:33,260 is the differences so it's not that I 558 00:25:36,970 --> 00:25:34,670 mean as you said they're on these 559 00:25:40,990 --> 00:25:36,980 bizarre account so you're never seen one 560 00:25:44,110 --> 00:25:41,000 funny about Jesus riding a chariot in 561 00:25:46,510 --> 00:25:44,120 the form of a cent or something man with 562 00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:46,520 his heart beating his chest and caring 563 00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:48,200 the shape with a Bishop's hat you just 564 00:25:53,110 --> 00:25:49,910 like to bizarre ones that would stand 565 00:25:55,350 --> 00:25:53,120 out so there are a lot of differences 566 00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:55,360 across cultures I always think there are 567 00:26:01,990 --> 00:25:58,210 different kinds of entities that are met 568 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:02,000 different identities ascribed to the 569 00:26:06,010 --> 00:26:03,280 negative spirit 570 00:26:08,670 --> 00:26:06,020 particularly in this necessary important 571 00:26:12,820 --> 00:26:08,680 who know Jesus or the other 572 00:26:14,220 --> 00:26:12,830 Alan Kelly here has done research on the 573 00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:14,230 tunnel experience and 574 00:26:19,630 --> 00:26:18,110 is basically showed how the experience 575 00:26:22,030 --> 00:26:19,640 of you live for your tongue it's a very 576 00:26:24,250 --> 00:26:22,040 Western thing for what it is doesn't 577 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:24,260 even work on you is me making darkness 578 00:26:29,530 --> 00:26:26,090 it's just saying the rest we interpret 579 00:26:31,690 --> 00:26:29,540 that as a time and then there were some 580 00:26:32,830 --> 00:26:31,700 people just experience certain elements 581 00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:32,840 some people don't 582 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:36,080 the life review is still moving there 583 00:26:40,180 --> 00:26:37,490 some people think that maybe it's 584 00:26:43,450 --> 00:26:40,190 definitely experience and maybe if 585 00:26:45,790 --> 00:26:43,460 you're dead longer don't have a life and 586 00:26:48,190 --> 00:26:45,800 that kind of thing so because the last 587 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:48,200 word culture comes in so I'm trying to 588 00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:50,320 show my work that there is this 589 00:26:55,450 --> 00:26:52,910 background essential and universal 590 00:26:57,310 --> 00:26:55,460 experience but when we're having an 591 00:26:59,680 --> 00:26:57,320 experience we don't suddenly stop being 592 00:27:02,110 --> 00:26:59,690 and then culturing an individual human 593 00:27:04,180 --> 00:27:02,120 being living in a certain place in a 594 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:04,190 certain time so if you're still 595 00:27:10,030 --> 00:27:07,570 experienced today and indeed you as a 596 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:10,040 enculturated personally certain beliefs 597 00:27:14,590 --> 00:27:12,650 thing and all that and then obviously 598 00:27:16,990 --> 00:27:14,600 maybe tell people about it and write it 599 00:27:21,150 --> 00:27:17,000 down on them if it becomes part of our 600 00:27:25,450 --> 00:27:21,160 belief systems then that's obviously 601 00:27:27,670 --> 00:27:25,460 culturally situated so isn't that even a 602 00:27:31,030 --> 00:27:27,680 little bit tricky because some of these 603 00:27:33,310 --> 00:27:31,040 near-death experiences seem to extend 604 00:27:34,870 --> 00:27:33,320 beyond someone's current culture they 605 00:27:37,930 --> 00:27:34,880 seem because then beyond someone's 606 00:27:41,770 --> 00:27:37,940 current lifetime in some cases so it 607 00:27:49,030 --> 00:27:41,780 isn't that even kind of a tricky terrain 608 00:27:51,460 --> 00:27:49,040 to navigate absolutely and in fact there 609 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:51,470 are a lot of experiences that are those 610 00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:53,570 experiences of atheists very young 611 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:56,450 children who have either no prior to be 612 00:28:00,310 --> 00:27:58,010 used to totally opposite that these two 613 00:28:01,810 --> 00:28:00,320 they can actually experience none but we 614 00:28:04,420 --> 00:28:01,820 still have all this information in 615 00:28:06,460 --> 00:28:04,430 knowledge forgiving hips so I'm not 616 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:06,470 saying that we're creating the 617 00:28:11,770 --> 00:28:08,090 experience since you say we act as 618 00:28:13,390 --> 00:28:11,780 filters for it and I think we can get 619 00:28:15,430 --> 00:28:13,400 rid of all of the clutter maybe there 620 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:15,440 are moments during the experience that 621 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:17,330 is like a pure consciousness event where 622 00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:19,730 there's new content going on in your 623 00:28:22,540 --> 00:28:20,030 mind 624 00:28:24,730 --> 00:28:22,550 but overall you come back and you have 625 00:28:26,370 --> 00:28:24,740 to explaining that this experience is 626 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:26,380 life 627 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:29,510 you know you don't have any language I 628 00:28:34,570 --> 00:28:30,970 think no I think we're state we have 629 00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:34,580 basically to explain it so we're gonna 630 00:28:38,740 --> 00:28:37,130 use metaphors and symbols and those are 631 00:28:41,860 --> 00:28:38,750 already John Kerry for culturing 632 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:41,870 language good to get back to the 633 00:28:48,930 --> 00:28:46,610 question you know the reality of these 634 00:28:51,670 --> 00:28:48,940 experiences the metaphysical reality 635 00:28:52,390 --> 00:28:51,680 people the healthy dishes with the 636 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:52,400 nightmare 637 00:29:01,420 --> 00:28:56,530 that they should believe I think that 638 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:01,430 the difficult thing about might work 639 00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:03,530 specifically innovation to that question 640 00:29:10,300 --> 00:29:06,140 is that it could actually be used to 641 00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:10,310 support either the theory that these are 642 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:12,880 genuine experiences indicating a real 643 00:29:19,990 --> 00:29:15,890 afterlife and a physical reality beyond 644 00:29:21,660 --> 00:29:20,000 all reality or it could be used to 645 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:21,670 support the whole diamond brain 646 00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:24,770 physiological hypothesis and I think 647 00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:26,510 that's the problem in general with cross 648 00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:30,080 cultural similarities then these they 649 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:32,660 can be used in either way so yeah where 650 00:29:37,180 --> 00:29:33,890 I thought you were gonna go with that 651 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:37,190 the second part is that because I'm not 652 00:29:42,070 --> 00:29:40,250 sure I can quite get there from your 653 00:29:44,380 --> 00:29:42,080 research in terms of the dying brain I 654 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:44,390 mean there's a physiology associated 655 00:29:47,860 --> 00:29:46,130 with the dying brain that just doesn't 656 00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:47,870 match up with these experiences and of 657 00:29:53,050 --> 00:29:50,470 course we don't know the exact 658 00:29:55,210 --> 00:29:53,060 circumstances of the medical trauma this 659 00:29:56,500 --> 00:29:55,220 person was going through and the 1700s 660 00:29:59,710 --> 00:29:56,510 or whenever some of these accounts were 661 00:30:01,990 --> 00:29:59,720 but we know from contemporary accounts 662 00:30:05,380 --> 00:30:02,000 it that doesn't fit you know so we have 663 00:30:08,790 --> 00:30:05,390 somebody who experiences drowning and 664 00:30:11,590 --> 00:30:08,800 they have a prolonged kind of gradual 665 00:30:13,630 --> 00:30:11,600 reduction of blood flow to the brain and 666 00:30:15,550 --> 00:30:13,640 they experience it exactly the same way 667 00:30:19,690 --> 00:30:15,560 if somebody jumps off the Golden Gate 668 00:30:22,180 --> 00:30:19,700 Bridge and isn't any real real physical 669 00:30:23,860 --> 00:30:22,190 trauma and yet they have similar 670 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:23,870 experiences then we have cardiac arrest 671 00:30:28,090 --> 00:30:26,810 and we have an amnesia I'm sorry we have 672 00:30:29,740 --> 00:30:28,100 people who are under anesthesia and 673 00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:29,750 people aren't under anesthesia so I 674 00:30:36,250 --> 00:30:32,710 think when you look at that broad the 675 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:36,260 broad diversity of medical conditions it 676 00:30:39,539 --> 00:30:38,810 seems to me that that informs your work 677 00:30:42,299 --> 00:30:39,549 and says hey 678 00:30:45,119 --> 00:30:42,309 it dying brain would be kind of the last 679 00:30:47,399 --> 00:30:45,129 thing that I'd layer on there but where 680 00:30:51,060 --> 00:30:47,409 I thought you were going is you know I 681 00:30:55,769 --> 00:30:51,070 think it can be used maybe to say there 682 00:30:59,100 --> 00:30:55,779 isn't any reality to an afterlife that 683 00:31:01,470 --> 00:30:59,110 would have any meaning in any religious 684 00:31:03,029 --> 00:31:01,480 sense or really any spiritual sense that 685 00:31:05,729 --> 00:31:03,039 it's just kind of a grab bag so 686 00:31:07,710 --> 00:31:05,739 something's happening there but you 687 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:07,720 can't there's nothing to hold on to in 688 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:10,690 terms of having any specific religious 689 00:31:19,109 --> 00:31:15,129 or even moral kind of beliefs I'm not 690 00:31:21,029 --> 00:31:19,119 sure about that because I think a really 691 00:31:24,109 --> 00:31:21,039 important thing about these experiences 692 00:31:27,479 --> 00:31:24,119 across cultures is that they're always 693 00:31:30,869 --> 00:31:27,489 going to use that term consciously oh I 694 00:31:33,060 --> 00:31:30,879 guess almost always interpreted as just 695 00:31:36,289 --> 00:31:33,070 like they seem to be you know being this 696 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:36,299 is what happens when you die yes so and 697 00:31:42,919 --> 00:31:40,210 you know thereby also apparently 698 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:42,929 demonstrating that when you die 699 00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:45,970 you can move your body there's dualism 700 00:31:52,489 --> 00:31:47,710 that there's an appetite in these things 701 00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:52,499 so and then as far as morality goes and 702 00:31:57,269 --> 00:31:54,539 ethical systems and things like that 703 00:32:01,289 --> 00:31:57,279 those are very culturally situated so 704 00:32:03,330 --> 00:32:01,299 you know in one society people who died 705 00:32:05,669 --> 00:32:03,340 in battle women who died in childbirth 706 00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:05,679 and suicides we'll get a better 707 00:32:11,159 --> 00:32:08,590 afterlife than anybody else because they 708 00:32:15,479 --> 00:32:11,169 lived an exemplary life according to 709 00:32:17,340 --> 00:32:15,489 that particular culture so there there 710 00:32:20,639 --> 00:32:17,350 are still opponet neural systems related 711 00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:20,649 to Emmys and afterlife beliefs um even 712 00:32:24,869 --> 00:32:23,200 though there's a significant situational 713 00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:24,879 to thinking on that from the cultures so 714 00:32:30,330 --> 00:32:26,710 there might not be you know one 715 00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:30,340 particular objective morality versus 716 00:32:35,639 --> 00:32:32,440 everybody in the world at least as far 717 00:32:38,580 --> 00:32:35,649 as you know you can get communities but 718 00:32:41,909 --> 00:32:38,590 but it does seem to have a relevance to 719 00:32:44,580 --> 00:32:41,919 those kinds of things that's a very 720 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:44,590 interesting point to me because I think 721 00:32:50,430 --> 00:32:46,690 from the the contemporary 722 00:32:52,940 --> 00:32:50,440 NDE accounts it does seem that you can 723 00:32:55,780 --> 00:32:52,950 tease out some kind of 724 00:32:59,570 --> 00:32:55,790 morality play there you know that 725 00:33:01,910 --> 00:32:59,580 certainly beyond the reductionistic you 726 00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:01,920 know kind of postman there's no meaning 727 00:33:05,060 --> 00:33:03,360 to anything you know there's no good 728 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:05,070 there's no bad it's all meaningless kind 729 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:06,930 of thing there's definitely meaning 730 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:08,610 there then I guess going one step 731 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:11,210 further and saying you know is there is 732 00:33:16,580 --> 00:33:13,740 there a morality is there a universal 733 00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:16,590 good there that I don't know what is you 734 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:19,230 what is your take of both contemporary 735 00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:21,330 accounts and then I guess where you're 736 00:33:25,580 --> 00:33:23,360 really pointing to and saying you know 737 00:33:26,810 --> 00:33:25,590 whether there is or not in contemporary 738 00:33:29,990 --> 00:33:26,820 accounts you're having a harder time 739 00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:30,000 finding that in the in the kind of 740 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:32,310 historical accounts across cultures is 741 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:36,810 that what you're saying yeah yeah I mean 742 00:33:48,620 --> 00:33:45,920 you know obviously the leading towards 743 00:33:51,140 --> 00:33:48,630 good be better than bad and okay write 744 00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:51,150 as good as often similar between 745 00:33:58,760 --> 00:33:55,770 cultures and as offenses so you know 746 00:34:02,900 --> 00:33:58,770 having a spike in your hand against your 747 00:34:06,410 --> 00:34:02,910 desk is bad in every culture but you 748 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:06,420 know having a good family and enough to 749 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:10,050 eat is good so so there are certain 750 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:15,450 behaviors that go along because I think 751 00:34:21,350 --> 00:34:17,490 it is kind of an important issue because 752 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:21,360 the one thing that does strike me a lot 753 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:23,610 is when you look at the contemporary 754 00:34:28,419 --> 00:34:25,649 near-death experience accounts 755 00:34:31,340 --> 00:34:28,429 hey overwhelmingly what these people say 756 00:34:34,970 --> 00:34:31,350 beyond all the kind of scholarly 757 00:34:39,669 --> 00:34:34,980 chitchat is hey man it's about love it's 758 00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:39,679 about this kind of indescribable but 759 00:34:45,380 --> 00:34:42,750 universally relatable feeling of love 760 00:34:48,110 --> 00:34:45,390 you know that's what it's about forget 761 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:48,120 everything else forget about the you 762 00:34:52,580 --> 00:34:49,770 know the chariot I was on and my hair 763 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:52,590 shaped as Pope's hat or whatever it was 764 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:54,690 about love that does seem to come 765 00:35:01,570 --> 00:34:57,450 through universally and I think that has 766 00:35:04,010 --> 00:35:01,580 a strong moral kind of message behind it 767 00:35:05,870 --> 00:35:04,020 how does that relate to what you're 768 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:05,880 finding cross culturally does it fit or 769 00:35:09,990 --> 00:35:06,850 does it not fit 770 00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:10,000 I think it does in some ways a lot of 771 00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:12,730 Native American accounts they're sent 772 00:35:16,790 --> 00:35:14,830 back in order to tell people about the 773 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:16,800 glories of the afterlife 774 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:20,050 you know there might not be always the 775 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:23,050 there are also many a council there's 776 00:35:28,830 --> 00:35:25,690 some kind of traditional ritual has 777 00:35:31,740 --> 00:35:28,840 changed and those are often changed for 778 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:31,750 the better so you know against sacrifice 779 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:33,970 or something like that I believe because 780 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:36,010 I was told you may be that's got to 781 00:35:40,730 --> 00:35:36,370 change 782 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:40,740 but he sent at the end of the world so 783 00:35:47,340 --> 00:35:43,290 yeah there might not always be 784 00:35:49,710 --> 00:35:47,350 specifically love as a concept expressed 785 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:49,720 in a nice text but it is often they 786 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:52,570 changed for the better expensively you 787 00:35:59,250 --> 00:35:54,970 only get out of like this policing as a 788 00:36:01,380 --> 00:35:59,260 place of wisdom there's always people 789 00:36:04,290 --> 00:36:01,390 undergoing ritual painting and 790 00:36:11,820 --> 00:36:04,300 purifications in are connecting so I 791 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:11,830 think it's definitely you know we've 792 00:36:15,450 --> 00:36:13,450 touched on this a little bit but I was 793 00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:15,460 wondering if we could kind of pull it 794 00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:17,920 out more directly what do you think are 795 00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:22,480 the are some specific implications for 796 00:36:28,410 --> 00:36:26,400 your research as it relates to 797 00:36:30,750 --> 00:36:28,420 contemporary near-death experience 798 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:30,760 researchers what can you tell them what 799 00:36:37,110 --> 00:36:33,370 is your research how can your research 800 00:36:38,850 --> 00:36:37,120 inform their research in and future 801 00:36:42,540 --> 00:36:38,860 directions that we might want to take 802 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:42,550 near-death experience science yeah 803 00:36:50,220 --> 00:36:47,170 that's a great question as somebody who 804 00:36:53,790 --> 00:36:50,230 has done all my and he researched you 805 00:36:55,650 --> 00:36:53,800 know mainstream academic contexts you 806 00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:55,660 know really limited the questions I've 807 00:37:00,900 --> 00:36:58,210 looked at to the relationship between 808 00:37:02,610 --> 00:37:00,910 the police and their death experiences 809 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:02,620 that believes in an acronym you get 810 00:37:06,690 --> 00:37:05,290 experiences which precluding the storm 811 00:37:09,330 --> 00:37:06,700 you know all this stuff that you talked 812 00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:09,340 about at the beginning of philosophical 813 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:11,680 deals and veteran experience even exists 814 00:37:19,230 --> 00:37:16,330 that can be cross country and that's all 815 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:19,240 that is kind of left on the wayside the 816 00:37:25,769 --> 00:37:20,650 the question of whether 817 00:37:30,299 --> 00:37:25,779 these experiences are real and I will 818 00:37:34,589 --> 00:37:30,309 say that when somebody's starts 819 00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:34,599 discussing this question with me from a 820 00:37:39,450 --> 00:37:36,910 perspective of total absolute belief I 821 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:39,460 will usually raise some issues that 822 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:43,690 might seem my challenge you know their 823 00:37:47,789 --> 00:37:45,490 whole metaphysical reality they need 824 00:37:49,170 --> 00:37:47,799 that if somebody comes to be really 825 00:37:51,420 --> 00:37:49,180 really skeptical in saying there's no 826 00:37:53,670 --> 00:37:51,430 way these can be metaphysical they're 827 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:53,680 all lying around with tiny clicking and 828 00:37:56,370 --> 00:37:55,450 I will argue even more of a super 829 00:37:58,980 --> 00:37:56,380 straight 830 00:38:02,880 --> 00:37:58,990 that you know you just can't say that so 831 00:38:05,789 --> 00:38:02,890 I will say that as you as you indicated 832 00:38:09,329 --> 00:38:05,799 all these theories about dying brains 833 00:38:11,460 --> 00:38:09,339 things like anoxia hypercarbia or REM 834 00:38:14,130 --> 00:38:11,470 intrusion living awakened and greater 835 00:38:16,289 --> 00:38:14,140 you know any of these things I'm not a 836 00:38:20,279 --> 00:38:16,299 single one of them actually works none 837 00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:20,289 of them really addresses ndb's in all of 838 00:38:24,180 --> 00:38:21,609 their similarities and all their 839 00:38:26,099 --> 00:38:24,190 differences across cultures so these 840 00:38:29,420 --> 00:38:26,109 physiological differences really 841 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:29,430 challenged with physiological theories 842 00:38:34,130 --> 00:38:32,170 so I think that's where one of the ways 843 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:34,140 in which you might the research can 844 00:38:39,180 --> 00:38:36,490 contribute to the sort of current debate 845 00:38:43,230 --> 00:38:39,190 and in question of whether he's agreeing 846 00:38:45,660 --> 00:38:43,240 or not because scientists need to the 847 00:38:48,539 --> 00:38:45,670 theoretical signers whatever they they 848 00:38:50,549 --> 00:38:48,549 call themselves really need to address 849 00:38:53,190 --> 00:38:50,559 why there would be differences across 850 00:38:57,839 --> 00:38:53,200 cultures if this is truly physiological 851 00:39:01,500 --> 00:38:57,849 experience that's kind of an interesting 852 00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:01,510 point um do you have any hunches I got 853 00:39:07,380 --> 00:39:04,089 to push this a little bit further do you 854 00:39:10,049 --> 00:39:07,390 have any any hunches that would kind of 855 00:39:13,710 --> 00:39:10,059 direct people in terms of what cultural 856 00:39:16,710 --> 00:39:13,720 markers to look for or to not look for 857 00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:16,720 or anything along those lines cuz you 858 00:39:19,589 --> 00:39:17,920 know let's say I'm a near-death 859 00:39:20,970 --> 00:39:19,599 experience researcher you know let's say 860 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:20,980 I'm Jeff long and I'm doing this survey 861 00:39:24,990 --> 00:39:22,930 you know it's a nice survey it's got 150 862 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:25,000 questions and it's got all the right 863 00:39:29,730 --> 00:39:26,890 controls built in there to cross check 864 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:29,740 and verify and all that stuff what 865 00:39:34,530 --> 00:39:32,170 questions do I want to ask people about 866 00:39:36,750 --> 00:39:34,540 their cultural 867 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:36,760 leaves the lack of culture beliefs 868 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:40,090 religious beliefs what are you finding 869 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:43,810 that are some of the the kind of markers 870 00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:46,090 that jump out at you or maybe you don't 871 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:50,220 really see anything from your research I 872 00:39:56,070 --> 00:39:52,810 would say those are very good questions 873 00:39:59,700 --> 00:39:56,080 I think the person's prior knowledge in 874 00:40:03,330 --> 00:39:59,710 the Deaf experience is important their 875 00:40:05,060 --> 00:40:03,340 previous beliefs I think there's an 876 00:40:07,890 --> 00:40:05,070 interesting distinction to make between 877 00:40:10,530 --> 00:40:07,900 people who could even an afterlife that 878 00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:10,540 are not ghosts or exists and be that 879 00:40:16,290 --> 00:40:12,730 people who believe in God and I think 880 00:40:17,580 --> 00:40:16,300 there can be no you know people who do 881 00:40:20,340 --> 00:40:17,590 believe in the possibility of an 882 00:40:23,130 --> 00:40:20,350 afterlife truth will be God so I think 883 00:40:24,830 --> 00:40:23,140 all those are good but I also think the 884 00:40:27,980 --> 00:40:24,840 more general the questions the better 885 00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:27,990 and I think how the body experience is 886 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:31,180 the most interesting indicator if there 887 00:40:38,780 --> 00:40:35,770 was a study done in the seventies I mean 888 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:38,790 she is about her body experiences in 889 00:40:44,820 --> 00:40:40,930 across cultures and he found since 890 00:40:46,770 --> 00:40:44,830 something like 90% of the 60 something 891 00:40:50,550 --> 00:40:46,780 surveys that he mentioned all have 892 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:50,560 anything on her body experiences so I 893 00:40:58,020 --> 00:40:54,370 think asking general questions and then 894 00:40:59,910 --> 00:40:58,030 giving respondents plenty of scope to 895 00:41:03,840 --> 00:40:59,920 remember anything that might help tease 896 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:03,850 out you know what what is more 897 00:41:12,690 --> 00:41:06,570 objectively broadly similar know what is 898 00:41:15,090 --> 00:41:12,700 no specific in their collision so dr. 899 00:41:17,730 --> 00:41:15,100 Shushan where do you go from here where 900 00:41:19,590 --> 00:41:17,740 is this research taking you and and 901 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:19,600 what's coming up for you in the near 902 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:23,290 future well I need to I'm finished 903 00:41:30,330 --> 00:41:27,010 writing up the current book indigenous 904 00:41:32,970 --> 00:41:30,340 religions experiences in the afterlife 905 00:41:35,730 --> 00:41:32,980 and that's most likely going to be 906 00:41:38,550 --> 00:41:35,740 another academic book like the first one 907 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:38,560 and then after that what I'd really like 908 00:41:45,540 --> 00:41:42,130 to do is write a more accessible book 909 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:45,550 for interested people and not just 910 00:41:51,430 --> 00:41:46,910 academics 911 00:41:54,130 --> 00:41:51,440 but combining all of my research and no 912 00:41:55,180 --> 00:41:54,140 sort of research summary and publish 913 00:41:59,650 --> 00:41:55,190 something like that because I think a 914 00:42:01,450 --> 00:41:59,660 lot of people are interested in and yeah 915 00:42:04,799 --> 00:42:01,460 you know there that that mean is a 916 00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:04,809 pretty huge claim to say that people's 917 00:42:09,130 --> 00:42:07,250 religious beliefs in an afterlife stem 918 00:42:11,950 --> 00:42:09,140 from your death experiences and I think 919 00:42:14,410 --> 00:42:11,960 if it weren't for the bigger ultimate 920 00:42:17,589 --> 00:42:14,420 question within your deaf experiences or 921 00:42:19,690 --> 00:42:17,599 evidence for an afterlife you know that 922 00:42:21,819 --> 00:42:19,700 would be a pretty good 923 00:42:24,220 --> 00:42:21,829 you know draw a lot of attention it's a 924 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:24,230 pretty major claim so I'm hoping to be 925 00:42:36,460 --> 00:42:34,250 able to make a case for that you know 926 00:42:39,549 --> 00:42:36,470 what one point we didn't quite get into 927 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:39,559 but we touched on in the email exchange 928 00:42:44,620 --> 00:42:42,650 we had is I definitely see where you're 929 00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:44,630 going there but don't you have to 930 00:42:50,140 --> 00:42:47,510 broaden it a little bit with I mean 931 00:42:52,750 --> 00:42:50,150 people are having all sorts of different 932 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:52,760 spiritually transformative experiences 933 00:42:59,890 --> 00:42:56,930 that I don't know I don't have the any 934 00:43:02,309 --> 00:42:59,900 kind of fact-based way to break this to 935 00:43:05,620 --> 00:43:02,319 back this up or any kind of 936 00:43:08,049 --> 00:43:05,630 archaeological or anthropological work 937 00:43:10,690 --> 00:43:08,059 but that seems to be the commonly 938 00:43:13,089 --> 00:43:10,700 accepted belief that you know people 939 00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:13,099 have all sorts of shamanic experiences 940 00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:15,710 hallucinogenic experiences spontaneous 941 00:43:21,010 --> 00:43:18,710 prayer experiences as well as near-death 942 00:43:23,799 --> 00:43:21,020 experiences and all those experiences 943 00:43:26,710 --> 00:43:23,809 are informing the culture and in 944 00:43:29,230 --> 00:43:26,720 particular the religious beliefs it is 945 00:43:31,690 --> 00:43:29,240 it isn't it broader than just near-death 946 00:43:39,569 --> 00:43:31,700 experiences or you're not specifically 947 00:43:43,980 --> 00:43:39,579 saying that they can see death visions 948 00:43:47,049 --> 00:43:43,990 precognition and various kinds of 949 00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:47,059 psychic phenomena and even going back to 950 00:43:53,079 --> 00:43:50,529 the 19th century and and relay that 951 00:43:57,309 --> 00:43:53,089 through of those fairy books as well 952 00:43:59,770 --> 00:43:57,319 right mm-hmm she wrote about this very 953 00:44:02,400 --> 00:43:59,780 thing that a lot of 954 00:44:05,050 --> 00:44:02,410 traditional societies navigators 955 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:05,060 specifically from psychical experiences 956 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:08,930 and this David Huffman is he he's the 957 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:11,690 person who um they've discovered sleep 958 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:14,570 paralysis as a cross cultural phenomenon 959 00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:18,170 in the eighties and it's a so very 960 00:44:25,660 --> 00:44:21,280 similar kind of thing and people 961 00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:25,670 experience a broadly similar phenomena 962 00:44:28,750 --> 00:44:27,110 where you feel like you're being held 963 00:44:30,670 --> 00:44:28,760 down this kind of half awake half 964 00:44:32,770 --> 00:44:30,680 dreaming state you can't leave 965 00:44:36,070 --> 00:44:32,780 then there's some malevolent presence in 966 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:36,080 England and he found the council this 967 00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:37,970 all over the world that he also 968 00:44:43,870 --> 00:44:40,400 identified it as you know a 969 00:44:46,270 --> 00:44:43,880 physiological thing that actually was 970 00:44:49,300 --> 00:44:46,280 identifiable there's only a brain so 971 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:49,310 there but that's something that's much 972 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:51,530 more than explaining something like no 973 00:44:56,140 --> 00:44:53,570 body experience or a precognitive 974 00:44:59,410 --> 00:44:56,150 experience work and you actually get his 975 00:45:00,880 --> 00:44:59,420 the riddle information right see is it 976 00:45:01,180 --> 00:45:00,890 that's the point that's or interest to 977 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:01,190 me 978 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:04,610 it is easily explained just like the 979 00:45:08,050 --> 00:45:06,650 psychedelic experience is easily 980 00:45:13,090 --> 00:45:08,060 explained it's some kind of biochemical 981 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:13,100 reaction in the brain until you come 982 00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:14,690 along and say well wait a minute 983 00:45:18,940 --> 00:45:17,210 no there is this near-death experience 984 00:45:20,740 --> 00:45:18,950 there is this genuine mystical 985 00:45:23,380 --> 00:45:20,750 experience and then it causes us to 986 00:45:24,490 --> 00:45:23,390 re-examine the whole lot because that's 987 00:45:26,950 --> 00:45:24,500 what's always fascinating to me about 988 00:45:28,810 --> 00:45:26,960 the atheistic kind of materialistic 989 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:28,820 perspective on psychedelics right 990 00:45:32,620 --> 00:45:30,650 they're like oh man that explains 991 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:32,630 everything you know that the Indians 992 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:34,130 were walking around behind the cows they 993 00:45:38,260 --> 00:45:36,290 eat the mushrooms they tripped out they 994 00:45:41,350 --> 00:45:38,270 wrote it down that's how they got the 995 00:45:43,870 --> 00:45:41,360 religion and it's like wow that's great 996 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:43,880 except it doesn't explain this whole 997 00:45:48,970 --> 00:45:47,330 other experience over here that totally 998 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:48,980 blows that out of the water and then you 999 00:45:54,610 --> 00:45:51,530 have it and both kind of thing that no 1000 00:45:56,620 --> 00:45:54,620 one's really tried to I think tackle 1001 00:45:59,710 --> 00:45:56,630 because you know what is the 1002 00:46:02,590 --> 00:45:59,720 relationship between the psychedelic 1003 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:02,600 experience and the near-death experience 1004 00:46:07,660 --> 00:46:05,690 on on a spiritual level on the level 1005 00:46:09,580 --> 00:46:07,670 that you're talking about I mean that's 1006 00:46:11,350 --> 00:46:09,590 the work that I think we we really have 1007 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:11,360 to do because you know a lot of people 1008 00:46:17,739 --> 00:46:14,410 in the near-death community or in 1009 00:46:19,329 --> 00:46:17,749 spiritual new-age community I hate to 1010 00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:19,339 say new-age everyone hates that but in 1011 00:46:23,950 --> 00:46:22,249 the spiritual community have a hard time 1012 00:46:26,049 --> 00:46:23,960 with the psychedelic experience right 1013 00:46:28,089 --> 00:46:26,059 they say oh no no no that's induced that 1014 00:46:30,220 --> 00:46:28,099 isn't natural you know God didn't come 1015 00:46:32,650 --> 00:46:30,230 down and really talk to you because you 1016 00:46:35,259 --> 00:46:32,660 were eating that root or that mushroom 1017 00:46:40,089 --> 00:46:35,269 and and that has to be read as well 1018 00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:40,099 right yeah it's the same with their 1019 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:43,180 shamanic experiences especially in 1020 00:46:51,849 --> 00:46:48,410 America where they're in either drugs 1021 00:46:54,130 --> 00:46:51,859 water drumming and dancing and all that 1022 00:46:55,989 --> 00:46:54,140 which then results at the very similar 1023 00:46:59,259 --> 00:46:55,999 experiences to a near-death experience 1024 00:47:01,390 --> 00:46:59,269 and the shaman who's responding goes 1025 00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:01,400 through various transitions and barriers 1026 00:47:06,460 --> 00:47:03,890 and goes to be a world basically 1027 00:47:09,519 --> 00:47:06,470 replicates and then delete so the 1028 00:47:11,499 --> 00:47:09,529 question is as you know is that the same 1029 00:47:14,229 --> 00:47:11,509 experiences in any de even though it's 1030 00:47:16,599 --> 00:47:14,239 you know essentially culturally induced 1031 00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:16,609 and deliberately revered replicated 1032 00:47:22,749 --> 00:47:20,210 where is an energy of spontaneous and I 1033 00:47:26,229 --> 00:47:22,759 guess the question is who knows but I do 1034 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:26,239 tend to give some kind of priority or 1035 00:47:32,259 --> 00:47:28,970 within de just as a researcher because 1036 00:47:37,539 --> 00:47:32,269 of the facts that it's at least begins 1037 00:47:42,009 --> 00:47:37,549 as a non cultural event becomes a 1038 00:47:44,979 --> 00:47:42,019 cultural experience gosh that's so 1039 00:47:48,130 --> 00:47:44,989 that's great great point there's there's 1040 00:47:50,859 --> 00:47:48,140 just so many research projects here that 1041 00:47:53,259 --> 00:47:50,869 no one will ever get to because you're 1042 00:47:55,479 --> 00:47:53,269 still hung up on the idea of whether or 1043 00:47:58,479 --> 00:47:55,489 not there is even such a thing as an 1044 00:48:01,359 --> 00:47:58,489 experience you can't experience anything 1045 00:48:04,329 --> 00:48:01,369 cuz you're just a biological robot so I 1046 00:48:07,839 --> 00:48:04,339 really appreciate the work that you do 1047 00:48:10,029 --> 00:48:07,849 and what you're up against so it is it 1048 00:48:12,309 --> 00:48:10,039 is really it is really fascinating stuff 1049 00:48:15,039 --> 00:48:12,319 and we'll definitely want to follow what 1050 00:48:17,019 --> 00:48:15,049 where you go with this and hopefully you 1051 00:48:20,049 --> 00:48:17,029 will get a book out there that's 1052 00:48:25,650 --> 00:48:20,059 suitable for the rest of us the general 1053 00:48:31,559 --> 00:48:29,190 so our guest today has been dr. Jick our 1054 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:31,569 guest today has been dr. gregory shushan 1055 00:48:38,009 --> 00:48:35,170 from oxford university fascinating stuff 1056 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:38,019 on cross-cultural look at near-death 1057 00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:40,210 experience gregory thanks again so much 1058 00:48:47,460 --> 00:48:45,670 for joining me thank you so there's one 1059 00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:47,470 question I'd like to tee up from this 1060 00:48:53,190 --> 00:48:49,599 interview and it has to do with this 1061 00:48:56,220 --> 00:48:53,200 topic of universal morality and love 1062 00:48:59,279 --> 00:48:56,230 which i think is something that is so 1063 00:49:01,920 --> 00:48:59,289 often overlooked in this research but is 1064 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:01,930 really undeniable because it comes 1065 00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:04,450 through again and again in all of the 1066 00:49:09,690 --> 00:49:06,910 contemporary near-death experience 1067 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:09,700 research that were exposed to so I guess 1068 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:11,650 here's the question idea up do 1069 00:49:16,980 --> 00:49:13,930 spiritually transformative experiences 1070 00:49:19,289 --> 00:49:16,990 including near-death experiences suggest 1071 00:49:22,319 --> 00:49:19,299 that there's a universal morality that 1072 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:22,329 there is love as we think of it a good 1073 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:24,970 that we can move towards or maybe even 1074 00:49:31,559 --> 00:49:28,690 are drawn towards so that's the question 1075 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:31,569 I'd love to get your thoughts on it of 1076 00:49:37,019 --> 00:49:33,130 course the place to do that is through 1077 00:49:39,150 --> 00:49:37,029 the skeptic Oh website at SK ep tik Oh 1078 00:49:41,549 --> 00:49:39,160 from there you can jump on over the 1079 00:49:43,019 --> 00:49:41,559 forum and join the conversation there or 1080 00:49:44,910 --> 00:49:43,029 leave a comment right there in the 1081 00:49:46,859 --> 00:49:44,920 comment section of the website you can 1082 00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:46,869 Facebook me or send me an email as 1083 00:49:51,930 --> 00:49:49,119 always and I'll try and get back to you 1084 00:49:53,759 --> 00:49:51,940 just as soon as I can a couple of 1085 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:53,769 announcements we have a number of 1086 00:49:59,370 --> 00:49:56,170 interesting shows coming up and a couple 1087 00:50:02,039 --> 00:49:59,380 of new twists on shows along the lines 1088 00:50:04,950 --> 00:50:02,049 that we've discussed previously here so 1089 00:50:06,839 --> 00:50:04,960 all that's in the works and it's I think 1090 00:50:09,150 --> 00:50:06,849 coming out nicely we'll see how it 1091 00:50:12,029 --> 00:50:09,160 evolves also I want to let you know that 1092 00:50:15,420 --> 00:50:12,039 my book why science is wrong about 1093 00:50:18,299 --> 00:50:15,430 almost everything is chugging along I'm 1094 00:50:20,759 --> 00:50:18,309 enjoying still doing interviews on that 1095 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:20,769 and I post those interviews over at the 1096 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:23,890 why science is wrong comm website and I 1097 00:50:28,529 --> 00:50:26,410 also have a forum section at The 1098 00:50:30,329 --> 00:50:28,539 Skeptical forum where we can chat about 1099 00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:30,339 that if you like there's been a couple 1100 00:50:34,799 --> 00:50:32,559 of reviews of the book that have come 1101 00:50:36,450 --> 00:50:34,809 out recently and some of them are kind 1102 00:50:38,549 --> 00:50:36,460 of challenging in some way which i think 1103 00:50:39,210 --> 00:50:38,559 is great I love to have that dialogue so 1104 00:50:43,710 --> 00:50:39,220 and 1105 00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:43,720 that out if you are so inclined well 1106 00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:45,520 that's gonna do it for this episode of 1107 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:48,310 skeptic Oh as always I do appreciate you 1108 00:50:52,740 --> 00:50:50,290 listening I appreciate you telling your 1109 00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:52,750 friends blogging about us coming about 1110 00:50:57,690 --> 00:50:55,090 us liking us where that is appropriate